General Politics Thread

Labour look to have some teetering on socialist ideas anyway, Brexit was more about which parliament we’re really under, no one cares about or wants something more socialist
 
Captaaainuniverse said:
no one cares about or wants something more socialist
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Cap, that's not a true or accurate statement by any means, is it? You can say that you aren't personally in favour of more socialist policies (as I'm sure you're not) but you can't claim that no-one is.

Of course Labour are going to have socialist policies, it's hardly a secret, they're a democratic socialist party by their own description and always have been (even under Blair, when the accuracy of that description could be called into question). Thankfully socialism isn't yet a dirty word in British politics like it is in the US, we've had multiple Labour governments before that have been far more socialist than Corbyn's version (and which actually gave people a lot of the rights they now take for granted).
 
I’ve always been socialist and I grew up under New Labour, Atlee and Wilson have been the best prime ministers we ever with Thatcher Worst.
And indeed Socialism isn’t a dirty word which is why the Tories have started calling Labour Commies.
 
If you blindly deny the existence of things you don't like, maybe it makes all of your opponents disappear too?

I'm a completely disloyal voter with no party affiliation whatsoever and I can safely say that there are people who do care about things other than Brexit, and that seeing them accused of socialism has precisely zero negative effect on whether I will vote for a particular party.

This topic demonstrates why it's good to read news from various sources instead of listening to echo chambers. "No one", indeed!

R
 
I thought in EU elections if I could stomach voting for the Lib Dems and they are the reason I will be in so much debt or Plaid Cymru buy no I hate the welsh language and they booted out the leader I liked so I’m still with Labour. (greens have been tainted by Lucas hanging around with the middle in my eyes)
 
thedoctor2016 said:
I’ve always been socialist and I grew up under New Labour, Atlee and Wilson have been the best prime ministers we ever with Thatcher Worst.
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On days when I'm feeling reasonable I'd call myself a libertarian socialist, on days I'm feeling less reasonable I'm probably closer to an individualist anarchist. I have moved right and left with the times somewhat on economic matters (although I've always been a social libertarian) but I think it's seeing crony capitalism at its corrupt, nepotistic worst that moved me back left.

Economically speaking, I see us living in a system of privatised profits and nationalised losses - Just look at the bloody railways or the banks, where private companies were able to walk away from unprofitable businesses and make the government (i.e. the taxpayers, us) pick up the tab. Look at how the wealthiest people and corporations avoid paying tax while the poor, self employed and small business owners have to pony up every penny. Even people who support the idea of capitalism shouldn't stand for that, it makes a mockery of fair competition.
 
I am a democrat mostly if I could get rid of the royal family I would this past year showed how pointless their power is they basically have to accept the PM request,
Economically and socially I love the welfare state it is the best thing Britain has ever done and education should be free for everyone why should people be penalized for wanting an degree or training if they want to change Carrer.
And yes ever since Thatcher made us a Free Market country we’ve gone to ****, the 90s were boom yes but all boom leads to bust.
 
thedoctor2016 said:
And yes ever since Thatcher made us a Free Market country we’ve gone to ****
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I almost wouldn’t mind if it really were a brutal, Randian free market of the kind I’m sure Thatcher & Co. believed in, at least that would be honest. But that would also mean no government intervention in the economy, so anything unprofitable (like the aforementioned banks and railways, also things like farms and the country’s basic infrastructure) would have simply ceased to exist and we’d probably be living in the Fallout universe by now (which I don’t deny has its own appeal to someone with anarchistic leanings). That or the UK would be a wholly owned subsidiary of another country, or even a large corporation, and then bang goes any accountability (not that there’s much now).

The fact is certain public services are never going to be profitable, or they’d only be profitable if they were so expensive most people couldn’t afford them. I’m of the opinion those services need to be publicly owned because as long as they’re in private hands and subsidised by the tax payer, we’re wasting public funds enriching private individuals. Individuals who bear no risk because if they fail, they can take the money and run since those services need to be kept running by the government for society not to collapse.
 
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I'm likely voting Liberal Democrat for the first time since 2010. Yes, I did feel burned by how much they conceded in the coalition but enough time has passed with enough of the hierarchy changed. True be told, I'm actually more comfortable with Labour's proposal of a second referendum as opposed to cancelling Brexit outright (though I expect the Liberals to still support one should it come foreard), however their are two things preventing me backing Labour. Firstly, the anti-Semitism scandal which, given some of my family's roots, makes me uncomfortable. Second is tactics, as much as I don't like approaching voting like this, the FPTP system forces you to consider it and the fact is that the Lib Dems have always done better than Labour in my area.

The influence of the tabloids is getting less and less in modern times so I don't think much of them.
 
Mr L said:
Firstly, the anti-Semitism scandal which, given some of my family's roots, makes me uncomfortable. Second is tactics, as much as I don't like approaching voting like this, the FPTP system forces you to consider it and the fact is that the Lib Dems have always done better than Labour in my area.
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I don’t think there’s anything wrong with tactical voting, in FPTP it’s really the only way to make a difference - I used to live in a rural constituency where the Liberals were the only potential challenger to the Tories and so I voted Liberal (at the time they were my preferred option anyway, Kennedy’s Lib Dems were more in line with my views than Blair’s Labour).

I would be genuinely interested in hearing your views on the whole anti-Semitism mess, I know it stirs a lot of strong opinions but I think it can be discussed reasonably. Personally, I just don’t see it in any of Labour’s actions or policies and I do think it’s been largely invented by the press. While I respect the right of other people to support the Israeli government, I think that’s a debate that should be able to be had without anyone criticising the Israeli government being tarred as an anti-Semite.
 
ayase said:
I don’t think there’s anything wrong with tactical voting, in FPTP it’s really the only way to make a difference - I used to live in a rural constituency where the Liberals were the only potential challenger to the Tories and so I voted Liberal (at the time they were my preferred option anyway, Kennedy’s Lib Dems were more in line with my views than Blair’s Labour).

I would be genuinely interested in hearing your views on the whole anti-Semitism mess, I know it stirs a lot of strong opinions but I think it can be discussed reasonably. Personally, I just don’t see it in any of Labour’s actions or policies and I do think it’s been largely invented by the press. While I respect the right of other people to support the Israeli government, I think that’s a debate that should be able to be had without anyone criticising the Israeli government being tarred as an anti-Semite.
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While its not in there policies as a political party, it does appear to be floating around the membership surrounding Corbyn who, at worst, believes such things too or at best has been ignorant of some of the things going on or the troubling nature of incidents he gave a thumbs up to. The most sketchy aspect with Corbyn on the matter is how far his mistrust for Israel goes which some extreme parties use as a cover for anti-Semitism. He appeared on Iranian state television expressing some Israel-related conspiracy and shared platform witb extremist Palestinian supporters who have spouted violent age old religious rhetoric.

I'm not a follower of the Jewish faith, or any faith, myself but historically, the prejudice goes beyond the belief system you currebtly subscribe to.
 
Mr L said:
I'm not a follower of the Jewish faith, or any faith, myself but historically, the prejudice goes beyond the belief system you currebtly subscribe to.
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While this itself is a touchy subject, I get the impression Jewishness is first and foremost regarded as an ethnicity - There are plenty of non-religious Jewish people and also plenty who aren't Zionists. I am interested to know what people who believe Corbyn or the leadership of the Labour party to be anti-Semitic make of Jewish people and groups who do support him. The dividing line between those who accuse him of anti-Semitism and those who support him seems to me to be whether or not they are supportive of Zionism or the current Israeli government, which would lend credence to my belief that those people are simply using accusations of anti-Semitism to stifle criticism of their political positions.

Just like people of any other ethnicity/race/religion, Jewish people are going to disagree with each other about things, especially politics (there are opposition political parties in Israel itself who disagree with the current government's actions). Disagreeing with and criticising the political beliefs of some Jewish people isn't the same as hating all Jewish people simply because of their ethnicity, which is what I'd consider to be genuine anti-Semitism. I don't believe for a second that Corbyn, or anyone in the Labour leadership hates all Jewish people, unless they've been totally lying their entire political careers about believing in fairness, anti-racism and equal opportunities.
 
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Even if it comes from naivete and ignorance on the part of the leadership, what some of their members (including some on the inner circles) have been doing, i don't feel they've handled it sufficiently and it still makes me uncomfortable.
 
Thanks for indulging me @Mr L, we're probably not likely to change each others' minds but I think even just hearing each others' perspectives is worthwhile. I think the main thing which I find a bit maddening is that I'd just like to be able to (and I think anyone else should also be able to) openly disagree with or say I dislike or even hate anyone of any race/ethnicity/gender/sexuality without people presuming that means I hate everyone in that group. But that seems to be becoming increasingly difficult these days as people have worked out (both online and in the press) that painting your opponents as bigots is a very easy way to shut down debate.

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Some interesting developments already on the election front - The Brexit Party won't stand aside for the Tories unless they ditch their new deal, a condition they have unsurprisingly rejected, which stands to eat into their vote share. Trump's stuck his oar in (of course he has) to basically tow Farage's line (of course he has) which is probably less than helpful to Boris, and we are apparently getting a debate.
 
I'm really torn about whether to vote tactically or not. My constituency in London has usually been a labour/ conservative marginal sort of seat, Labour lost here in 2017 but not by much at all. However, I saw some poll recently suggesting the Lib Dems have shot to popularity here lately (no doubt in large part due to Labour's perceived anti-semitism, as my constituency has one of the largest Jewish communities in London. The Lib candidate defected from Labour citing anti semitism and seems very popular here,). But god I do not want to vote Lib Dem, I promised myself I would never vote for them again after I gave Clegg my very first vote and they sold me and everyone else down the river. What's more, the party only seems less honourable and more desperate and deluded now than they ever were before! Peddling a frankly irresponsible fantasy of outright revocation at the expense of everything else; every leaflet they shove through my letterbox only ever says "STOP BREXIT" with absolutely no other information apart from telling me labour can't win here apparently. That's another thing, they spend more time bashing labour than they do anyone else, that really annoys me. And from what I've seen of Jo Swinson's voting record ,she's just another liberal who pays lip service but votes through benefit cuts.

God knows I despise Johnson, and I want to contribute to trying to get him out of power, but I just don't think I can vote Lib dem. Oh I don't know what to do. Maybe labour can turn things around in my area over the next few weeks, or I can hope so.
 
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@Vashdaman Oh my. Being fairly certain of the identity of that particular Lib Dem candidate and the damage they've done to the Labour Party over the past year certainly wouldn't make that decision any easier for me (I might even be tempted to vote Tory out of spite in an attempt stop them being returned as an MP). My current Labour MP is sitting on a nearly 14k majority and I think their closest threat this time around is more likely to be from the Brexit Party than the Tories.

With regards to party positions, I think a friend of mine said it best - "UKIP has become the BNP, the Tories have become UKIP and the Lib Dems have become the Tories".
 
The Lib Dems only releases that polling cos it made them first. I do think Luciana will win and be the only defector to keep a seat (well not the same one). I think Chuka will lose but be close and Sam will make the Tories regain Kensington
 
Both safe seats like mine and the parachuting in of candidates into seats like Vash’s really bring home the faults of FPTP. It is a really unfair and gameable system, yet another thing the Lib Dems managed to balls up in coalition was the AV referendum - No-one understood it, it wasn’t particularly appealing and the Tories played them like a fiddle. If it had been a referendum on proportional representation we might have a fair voting system by now.
 
AV would have benefited the Lib Dems and that’s it. Because well who do the left and right have in common their second choice would be the person in the middle. (Well for me the second is Plaid Cymru.)
PR would make elections proxy referendums so I dunno if they would be fair. Maybe the middle option like in Wales assembly elections but it’s never supposed to make majorities and 3 times out 5 Labour got majorities. (Other two Labour stayed in power with deals) I think any other system would benefit the Lib Dems more than anyone else. I know it’s fair for UKIP to have 20% of MPs but I think it would have created more chaos. I can’t see any system working it would make more coalitions and we seen how that worked last time. The Lib Dems did past most their manifesto but one issue everyone focuses on.
I do probably want PR but after Labour becomes middle again as it’s gonna happen.
 
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I think the fact people feel their votes don’t matter is what has created a lot of the dissatisfaction with politics though - You might not relish the idea of more UKIP MPs (though I imagine a lot of them would have already defected to the Tories or the Brexit Party by now) but enough people voted for them and those people still deserve to be represented in parliament. Currently they’re not, at all, which is the same with Green voters in all but one constituency. And that surely helped create the kind of resentment that led to Brexit and the polarisation of politics in this country.
 
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