Abortion

[CitizenGeek]

I know this is a sensitive issue, but I'm sure the members of AUKN can deal with it in a sensitive way.

Abortion is a huge issue in the US and also here in Ireland. It seems like it's pretty much a non-issue in the UK, and much of Western Europe, but I'd still like to hear your opinions on it.

 

[MrChom]

Being somewhat of a man from the 1950s (not physically, mind, I just get accused of having my social views stuck there) I hold a very....unfashionable point of view on this.

Allowing abortion is basically saying that the state has the right to determine what is, and what is not a person. People can be murdered, non-people cannot. In my view it's one step away from saying that anyone over 50 can be disposed of on their relatives say so.

Now, I admit, there are cases where abortion might be preferable...such as cases of rape, or cases where a birth might harm/kill the mother....but even these, to me, dangerously tread the line of acceptability.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not some kind of weirdo who goes round the streets screaming that those aborting foetuses should be shot on sight, I'm just in general opposition to any government aywhere being able to draw that line between a person with right and a "thing" with no rights. What next? Are the mentally deficient now non-persons too? How about anyone with a different skin colour or hair colour than the prime minister? Anyone under 7?

If you're fine with abortion then you have to ask yourself if you would be fine walking up to a child, and killing them in cold blood. To me there's no difference, you're making that decision of who should live, and who should die.

 

[ayase]

Holy **** CG, this thread is asking for trouble...

However I like the odd political debate Yes I do support the right of women to have abortions on demand for the following reasons:

1 - I'm a man. Men shouldn't be deciding anything to do with women's bodies - you end up with horrific things like female "circumcision" which is actually more akin to cutting a guys penis off.

2 - It's also an individual choice. I consider myself a libertarian, so if it only affects you and your own body, do whatever you want - but what gives anyone the right to tell others what they should and shouldn't do with their lives?

Admittedly, anti-choice people would say you're affecting the child's life as well. I personally don't remember being in my mother's womb. Hell, I don't remember much before I was three or four.

As for the argument that a child is better off being born and kept or adopted - you might as well flip a coin. Some adopted kids lead great lives. Some unwanted kids lead really **** ones, and for these reasons I don't think anyone can hold the moral high ground.

To sum it up, choice is always better than no choice.

 

[Jaymii]

I'd say it was fine, without putting a "face" on the decision, but my school had videos shown (and a few days dedicated the subject and subjects like it) and in my opinion makes me kind of undecided. Some of the video(s) were about how people cope after the abortion, with them saying it made their life filled with regret about the decision. An example being fathers having no say in the decision feeling like they've lost something magical, although it can work the other way. The fact it can ruin a persons life is terrible.

I think it should be a viable option for people who actually well and truly know what they are getting themselves into, But, otherwise I don't think its the right option, really. So, Yes, I support it.

..I suppose this thread will turn into a discussion of what counts as a human life as it goes on! Shall be interesting.

 

[ayase]

Allowing abortion is basically saying that the state has the right to determine what is, and what is not a person. People can be murdered, non-people cannot. In my view it's one step away from saying that anyone over 50 can be disposed of on their relatives say so.

Yet again we find ourselves in (hopefully continually amiable) opposition, MrChom. :wink:

I'd take issue with the fact that disallowing abortion is also the State interfering with what constitutes a person. And as such, the only place for this decision (as with most, in my opinion) is in the hands of the individual.

 

[shira]

Only in rape an incest. If your dull enough to get pregnant for a different reason, then its your fault and you should live with it. As MrChom said, its effectively killing. However I dont belive there should be ANY choice after 8 weeks, no matter what the circumstance. (I believe its 8 weeks when the baby would actually feel pain, but please do correct me if im wrong.)

 

[MrChom]

Allowing abortion is basically saying that the state has the right to determine what is, and what is not a person. People can be murdered, non-people cannot. In my view it's one step away from saying that anyone over 50 can be disposed of on their relatives say so.

Yet again we find ourselves in (hopefully continually amiable) opposition, MrChom. :wink:

I'd take issue with the fact that disallowing abortion is also the State interfering with what constitutes a person. And as such, the only place for this decision (as with most, in my opinion) is in the hands of the individual.

I like a good debate, last person I had long arguments with on forums I knew in person...leading to debates in the pub about the topics on the forum...leading to the immortal discussion that followed the line being said of me...."he's great to have an argument with....he's opinionated...informed.....and always ALWAYS wrong!". Good times...

Anyway. I think the key issue here is that rather than ruling out the right to life of an entity they are entitling it, which to me is a key point in the issue. While you can justify what some might consider to be distasteful things when a right to life has been ruled out there's very little that can be said to be a negative impact for giving that right to life.

Back to that issue of choice, though, I do believe in choice...the choice to use contraception, the choice to abstein from sex. I realise that along with those we would also need far FAR better sex education to make all the 14 year old mothers out there aware that sex without a condom has a good choice of making you pregnant but if that's the case then so be it. Contraception in most health authorities is already free, and making people aware from a younger age what the consequences are then they might be a bit more careful.

As a (social) conservative (note the VERY small c there), I've always been a great believer in actions having consequences. By having sex you're basically saying that you're willing to deal with those consequences (hence why I think exceptions should be made for rape). Maybe it sounds a little harsh...and perhaps it is, but hey, it's just an opinion.

 

[ayase]

Only in rape an incest. If your dull enough to get pregnant for a different reason, then its your fault and you should live with it.

Seems a bit harsh Spyro. So a woman who doesn't want a baby is forced to have one. Maybe all that happened was a condom broke - She resents caring for the child, considers it to have ruined her life. Abuses it. The child grows up unwanted and unloved. Or she realises she likes being a mother, loves the child and both lead a happy life together. Like I say - flip a coin. Life or Death. Good Life or **** Life. Would you know any different if you'd never been born?

If you belive abortion is wrong, fine. You don't have to have one (especially if, like all of us posting so far, you're male). But if you don't have a problem with it then why should you be dictated to by the morality of others?

Interesting question: Is it any different from being executed for having affair in Saudi Arabia, because the morality of the people in charge says that that's the right thing to do?

Just seen Chom's post there - dealing with the consequences does play a big part, but some people are very bad at that. I've already mentioned abusive parents. A lot of people also understand and deal fine with the consequences of having an abortion. For a lot of us it's not the massive deal that the Pro Life / Anti Choice people make it.

 

[MrChom]

Pro Life

Woah there, sunshine, I do actually like to distance myself from that term....reason being that from any debates I've seen from the US the terms "pro life" and "weird religious nutcase" seem to be intertwined.

I may be a christian, but I chose to separate that in discussions like this because that's my faith, not the faith of those around me...that and I believe that religion + state = very no

As for the failed contraception thing, well, yes...that is unfortunate....but by having sex you're still saying you're okay with that 1 time in 100 the contraception failing. Admittedly, yes, again, this comes back to better sex education for the rotting brains of the slack jawed adolescents of our nation (youth is wasted on the young) but that's something Holland has used to great effect over the last 20 or so years...but hey, you know, all those studies and statistics that look at teenage pregnancy rates for the continent compared to here apparently mean nothing to our education minister, I mean what do raw facts mean next to traditional Yes Minister style incompetency, eh?

It's just like the rest of medicine to my eyes.....prevention is preferable to "cure".

 

[chaos]

Only in rape an incest. If your dull enough to get pregnant for a different reason, then its your fault and you should live with it.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/123741.stm

Also, no contraceptive method is infallible - the pill has an effective failure rate of 8% while condom has 15%...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison ... us_methods

So in other words, all those women are dull, that's what you mean? In my opinion the only contraceptive method that is 100% failure proof is celibate. I don't think that is an viable option though..

 

[ayase]

Pro Life

Woah there, sunshine, I do actually like to distance myself from that term....reason being that from any debates I've seen from the US the terms "pro life" and "weird religious nutcase" seem to be intertwined.

I'll go back to using anti-choice exclusively then.

Hey chaos. Never fear! Statistics Man is here!

 

[MrChom]

Pro Life

Woah there, sunshine, I do actually like to distance myself from that term....reason being that from any debates I've seen from the US the terms "pro life" and "weird religious nutcase" seem to be intertwined.

I'll go back to using anti-choice exclusively then.

Hey chaos. Never fear! Statistics Man is here!

Anti-Choice actually does describe me better. There's a website out there called NationStates that lets you run your own country....every day it asks you new questions (basically a small moral dilemma) and your government has to choose how to solve it, my state's government was labelled "Father knows best".

Anyway, as for no method of contraception being 100% reliable...yes....we know, have known for years. But let's just analyse this here....the purpose of sex is for.....DUN DUN DUN...making new humans. If people don't want that then they should just learn, if you'll excuse my crudeness, how to give really really great head.

To me making someone live with a baby that they might not want and the kid maybe being given up for adoption, or even having a childhood that isn't as great as other kids is better than denying that kid a right to any kind of life at all.

There's always going to be a fundamental divide here, basically, between the people who consider abortion to be the death of a child, and those who consider it to be another method of birth control. It's one of those big divisive issues like the death penalty, democracy, civil rights etc. that just drives a big wedge in society.

Frankly I'd be willing to compromise with the government as it stands (as our abortion laws are now 50 years old), that there should be no abortion after the earliest point at which a foetus has been born and survived. Frankly at that point I don't think anyone could morally say that that is not murder. I admit, at earlier points that there may be points where the child isn't viable, can't feel pain, or any one of a hundred other reasons why people might say it's not human...but at the point it becomes viable (which I remind you is NOT where our current abortion limit is set) you do have to admit that there is something that is greatly morally worrisome about aborting then.

 

[shira]

Only in rape an incest. If your dull enough to get pregnant for a different reason, then its your fault and you should live with it.

Seems a bit harsh Spyro. So a woman who doesn't want a baby is forced to have one. Maybe all that happened was a condom broke - She resents caring for the child, considers it to have ruined her life. Abuses it. The child grows up unwanted and unloved. Or she realises she likes being a mother, loves the child and both lead a happy life together. Like I say - flip a coin. Life or Death. Good Life or **** Life. Would you know any different if you'd never been born?

If you belive abortion is wrong, fine. You don't have to have one (especially if, like all of us posting so far, you're male). But if you don't have a problem with it then why should you be dictated to by the morality of others?
/quote]

I do see your point; and I must say I dont feel strongly on the topic. Harsh? Yeah, its harsh. But im a pretty harsh person. If it was an accident, then fair enough, but everyone has accidents and has to live with the consquences. If she resents the child after its born; then she must be one horrid woman to be honest; I dont know anyone who couldnt love thier child. Many women dont want a child; but when they have it love it. As with all debates, we can think up the many different situations that cause holes in the other arguement. Yes; if the child would have a terrible life maybe abortion is right; equally though its not the childs fault. Why should he just be killed like that?

Again; might I add this really isnt a strong topic for me. I dont care much either way.

 

[Ryo Chan]

Personally i'm fine with abortion aslong as it's within the first 2-4 weeks of it, but then again i don't believe a child effectivly has a soul until after 4 weeks anyway. Not to say other relegions are wrong, just my point of view

 

[Ammish]

I'm a bit iffy on the subject...

In one way, Abortion is invetible if you've been raped. As for Incest, I don't really care. If brother and sister decided to have sex and got pregnant, then they take the responsibility as a mother and father.

But even 'if' you've been raped and got pregnant, what you have inside of you is a living thing. The least you can do is to let it be born, then go from there to see if you are truly ready to love and look after this child. If you cannot do that, then give him/her up to a Children's home and hope for the best that he/she goes to a good home.

If you cannot even let it be born, then I have no judgement. After all, I'm a male and can never know how it's like for a woman to be pregnant, especially if it's against her will.

But tbh, if my girlfriend got pregnant and the baby is mine, then she decides on a abortion. I would be quite upset as I would love and dream of being a father when I'm older and wise enough. But I wouldn't dream of having one at 16 =P

Abortion is very tricky and it differ on every person. To some, it's traumatic. To other, it's like a wind blow past you under a second. You quickly forget about it.

 

[Ryo Chan]

ah yes i shoulda really mentioned that, my view above does vary from case to case, i don't agree that people who deside to just have un-protected sex for fun should be allowed abortions. But some things in life you can't control

1 day life may be fine enough for you to to have a child, then something may happen, u/ur partner may lose their job, split up, acident ect ect which may lead to not being able to support a child.

There are certain conditions i would never want to see a child grow up in, giving to a home could be ok, if it was a decent home, but some of the conditions in Africa/iraq/ect where people can't even feed themselves, nevermind their children, what kind of a person would want to bring any kind of person into a world like that?

 

[rick]

Well I think it's acceptable as long as you do it within a couple of weeks of becoming pregnant. But obviously (maybe) it's more acceptable in situations of rape etc, and so I also think, even in countries that forbid it, should allow it.

However If it's at all possible, putting the un-wanted child up for adoption would be more ideal than terminating it in the early stages of pregnancy. At least you're allowing it to live.

 

[chaos]

...But even 'if' you've been raped and got pregnant, what you have inside of you is a living thing. The least you can do is to let it be born, then go from there to see if you are truly ready to love and look after this child. If you cannot do that, then give him/her up to a Children's home and hope for the best that he/she goes to a good home.

If you cannot even let it be born, then I have no judgement. After all, I'm a male and can never know how it's like for a woman to be pregnant, especially if it's against her will.

But tbh, if my girlfriend got pregnant and the baby is mine, then she decides on a abortion. I would be quite upset as I would love and dream of being a father when I'm older and wise enough. But I wouldn't dream of having one at 16 =P

Abortion is very tricky and it differ on every person. To some, it's traumatic. To other, it's like a wind blow past you under a second. You quickly forget about it.

Nice post. One of the best episodes of House in my opinion is one were he deals with a girl who were raped, get pregnant and decide to keep the baby.
He is so baffled with her decision and to TBH, I'd be too.

In the end I don't really think it's us males right to decide such thing. It's not the guy body that goes under changes, guys won't go into labour, etc, etc. I wanted to hear a female opinion on the subject.

 

[melonpan]

Having seen pretty much exactly how (ableit only this one way) abortion is carried out, it really hits home on what it actually entails.

Basically they got syringes and pumped the fluid out of the womb and pumped the syringe onto a sieve to check they'd actually pumped out the embryo. It's revolting, disgusting, unnatural and something that changed my mind to anti-choice.

I'm still not entirely made up on the matter myself, though, in certain cirsumstances, that's why I chose the 'rape and incest' option.

Trying to think from a woman's perspective I wouldn't like to have something growing inside me for all those months that ultimately I don't want and I'm not going to love. Of course, if you're raped you can choose to love that baby all the same, so there's the choice. But I think what it comes down to is if that baby that will be born will be loved by its mother.

I'm really not ready to make any kind of decision on the matter though, as there will always be pretty dire reasons to choose one way or the other. I think if I knew the baby being born from a mother that didn't want the baby, would be going straight into the arms of another woman who was ready to care for the baby with absolute, unquestionable love then I'd definately be anti-choice, but just the fact that there may be a baby out there that will be completely unloved and have to live in foster care for their childhood then that puts me on the pro-choice side. I also don't think its appropriate to use animalistic values to justify something in human society, because it's completely different. If an animal has its offspring and doesn't love it, it will just die, so anything to do with that shouldn't be used in this kind of debate I don't think.

EDIT: I think anyone pro-choice should actually go and see an abortion being carried out first-hand to fully label themselves 'pro-choice'.

 

[MrChom]

It may not be our right as men to decide what a woman does with her body, but by extension is it her right to decide what happens to someone else's body, whether they get the right to life?

Surely it's our duty as human beings to protect the life and liberty of all other humans....