Naruto vs. Bleach. Ninja vs. Samurai.

Paul

Paul

Ghost of Animes
Administrator
After the success of the Evangelion vs. RahXephon thread, which managed to engineer some geniuenly good debate and opinions, I thought this would be another decent comparision to discuss.

Naruto is essentially the most popular series to come out of Japan since Dragonball Z, while Bleach is the new kid on the block. Both Naruto and Bleach are original stories produced for the popular Shounen Jump magazine and they share many basic similiarities and story formulas (long winded fights, flashbacks, training), often leading to heated debate between their respective fanbases.

My opinion on Naruto and Bleach.

Naruto's appeal is hard to pin down, but its massive success is hardly blind luck. I think I agree with other fans when they say it's down to the characters; many of whom represent a familiar human emotion, whether it's Naruto's quest for recognition or (to pick on just one of many others) Neji's struggle against his preordained fate. Essentially, most viewers can easily empathise with the characters and their individual struggles through life. Compared with One Piece or Dragonball, Naruto is more an intricate personal drama than an out right adventure series; and in this sense, it's clearly different from the many other large Shonen Jump productions.

Of course, it helps that Naruto's complex and vibrant "universe" is just so damn cool. Between the stylish character designs (Rock Lee is an instant anime legend) and the inventive, larger than life combat- the show feels fresh and unique. Naruto's unpredicable world is clearly different to ours and this is naturally intriguing, and even exciting.

Having seen 20 episodes of Bleach, I have to admit I was left underwhelmed. Unlike Naruto, I strugged to get into the characters and empathise with their formulaic "save the girl" struggles. At it's most basic level, Naruto is about chasing an impossible dream, but Bleach seemed more muddled, jarringly fluctuating between typical slice of life drama and anti-climatic action, the setting of which is often drab and mudane. I can see how Bleach would be more of an anime fans favourite, but I don't feel it has the accessability of Naruto.
 
Admittedly my exposure to our lil orange jammy clad ninja friend Naruto has been fairly limited. I did enjoy the manga, but to me it just came across as grassroots Shonen Jump fodder, neither particulary deep nor involving. Granted, the action was fairly well handled, yet I found it difficult to forge a connection with these characters, who to be honest came across as very derivative and with all the requisite stereotypes attached.
Understand though that these are purely initial impressions, because, as I said my exposure to the whole Naruto phenomenon doesn't amount to much, unfortunately on the basis of what I've seen I'm not in too much of a hurry to fix that anytime soon.

Now Bleach on the otherhand is a show that I can relate to, for a SJ series it's a refreshingly offbeat romp with an achingly cool, uber-distinctive style. It's taken the rudiments of the SJ genre: epic fight scenes, over reaching plot arcs and massive ensembles but wraps them all up in this fresh exterior that manages to pull in everything from slice of life to inane comedic skits. As such it caters to fans from a wide variety of genres but it never feels sporadic or disjointed, quite a feat when you take into account the size of the cast and the sheer number of styles the series is capable of broaching at any one time.

The character development too, is nothing short of meticulous. Quite how Kubo's managed to squeeze this many intriguing creations out of his brain I'll never know, but I'm glad he did. You may think you have a character pinned down but first impressions rarely count for anything where this show's concerned. Aside from the customary dollops of exposition the characters stick in your mind because a lot of the time they're downright kooky, they're just so well observed and full of personality.

Another key ingredient is the action, which in the latter half of the series practically defines the word, epic. The Ichigo, Zaraki showdown for me at least still ranks as the single best one on one to get the animated treatment. It may feel by the numbers at times, but there's a rawness and a feeling of 'anything goes' that keeps the viewer on their toes and their eyes glued firmly to the screen.

Naruto may be the safer bet and boast the most crossover appeal, but for me Bleach beats it hands down, thanks to it's relatively mature outlook, sense of derring do and the most deliciously meaty ensemble to grace the page and screen for many a year. Ninja have always been the poor man's Samurai anywhoo. ;)
 
Paranoia Agent said:
Granted, the action was fairly well handled, yet I found it difficult to forge a connection with these characters, who to be honest came across as very derivative and with all the requisite stereotypes attached.
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I saw nothing in the first 20 episodes of Bleach to suggest that the character motivations are particularly deep. Honestly, I thought they were boring; where did Ichigo's complex connection to Rukia come from anyway? His desperation for her simply sprung up rather than was developed over time as belivable relationship.
Does Ichigo even have a reason for becoming a Soul Slayer? Sorry to say, I felt the cliche tragic event in his past was woefully executed and seemed tacked on as an after thought. I think this is my main problem with Bleach, there is an obvious lack of direction (at least for the first 20 episodes).
Comparitively, character motivations in Naruto are clearly defined from the outset. Naruto (the character) is hated by his entire village and his dream to become the Hokage (Village leader) is merely a way of him earning their respect. Every character in Naruto represents another familiar human emotion, be it revenge (Sasuke) or how hard work can overcome a lack of natural talent (Rock Lee).

You can't really watch one or two episodes of a Shounen Jump series and immediately start saying the characters are derivative or sterotypical. I struggled to really enjoy Naruto for the first four to eight episodes, but the story and it's wonderful characters soon had me hooked with their burning ambitions.

Looking at production values, Naruto wins hands down. The fight choreography is often outstanding and the animation reaches theatrical levels of kinetic fluidity, specificially, if you have to see one episode of Naruto; watch episode 133. Purely looking at the animation, fist to fist battles and large than life ninja moves, it's one of the finest single episodes of anime to be produced in the last five years. I'm not saying that has a diehard fan of the series; show this episode to anyone and the jaw on the flaw response is guarenteed.
 
I must say that I do care about the characters in Naruto a whole lot more than the characters of Bleach, theres more emotion to Naruto, Im not saying that Bleach is bad because of that but it seems more comedy orientated the majority of the time.
 
Bleach or Naruto? Hmm... I guess we'll find out what people think when that round of the character battles commences.
I agree with what Paul said, in that the motivations of the Naruto cast are more emphasised than in Bleach, but I think that sometimes this can bog Naruto down a bit. I think also think that Bleach is more stylish (altho I haven't seen Naruto 133 yet, and aren't likely to anytime soon). As always, I guess it depends on what you're looking for.
 
Now, I think this thread goes some way to prove that to pass judgement on which anime is the superior without having seen the majority of both is perhaps not the fairest and most balanced act, since our own opinions tend towards the series that we have continued watching. Having said that, I've made judgements on the two (and will make more below) having only seen the first dozen of so episodes of Naruto, so I suppose what i've just said was hypocritical.

Personally, i'm more of a Bleach fan. Although I didn't watch much of Naruto considering the series' length, the fights left me underwhelmed, while Bleach's sword-on-sword duels are always thrilling and, no matter how long they last, they always manage to pass by without a glimmer of boredom or doubt as to the anime's direction.

From what i've seen with Naruto it seems much more devoted to the anime equivalent of side quests than Bleach, where every fight seems focused on adding something to the continuing plot or backstory of the characters (and there is a lot of backstory; nearly every character seems to have something lurking in their past). With characters such as Aizen, Zaraki and Byakuya and his hauteur, the viewer's perception of their personality and goals is changed throughout the anime, as you see events from their, or other, points of view.

Bleach also seems to be extremely capacious, switching from action to drama to comedy. It's also extremely stylist in it's own way. The music could be the weak link; I enjoy it but it seems nothing special, and the first opening and current ending I really couldn't stand. I doubt the music could stand up on it's own as a soundtrack, with a few dramatic exceptions.

And it's not totally black-and-white; the officious captain Mayuri may seem like a mad scientist who enjoys cutting his "daughter" up and savaging her for trying to protect him, but more questions are raised when his daughter reveals that she is relieved that Mayuri is alive, because despite his treatment of her, she still has some sort of love for him; this forces the viewer to question whether killing Mayuri later in the anime would be a morally wrong action consider how much it would hurt his abused daughter.

It's these aspects that make me like Bleach, when i've never been a huge fan of the Shounen Jump range in general (although, of course, there are exceptions), and has made me slightly more open minded when it comes to "fighting" shows.

Naruto, from what I saw of it, was an enjoyable experience, but there was nothing that really appealed to me emotionally to the degree that, say, Rukia's imprisonment does. The action scenes were well done, I have to say, and the characters proved likeable, but there was nothing that made me desparate to download every subsequent episode. I plan to collect the manga, though, because the first five volumes were fun reads, and I may return to the anime at a time when i'm bereft of anime.

I think, in the end though, it's all a matter of opinion and personal taste. I think the only time when we can fairly compare both series is when they are both finished.

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Naruto starts off more like a comedy type show but really gets good with the Zabuza/Haku arc (probably my favourite of the anime so far) to appreciate the show you really need to see quite a few episodes of it because over time you grow to feel more for the characters and see why Naruto really has such a massive fanbase. Unfortunately there has been 2 filler arcs in a row and a next one soon but the manga is only about a volume and a half in front of the anime so its fair enough, and the filler arc that just finished in Naruto really was suprisingly good and the next one promises to be equally entertaining.
 
Chomolungma said:
Now, I think this thread goes some way to prove that to pass judgement on which anime is the superior without having seen the majority of both. Having said that, I make judgements on the two (and will below) having only seen the first twenty or so episodes of Naruto, so I suppose what i've just said was hypocritical.
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I think if you watch more than say 10 episodes of any anime series, you're welcome to pass judgement on its various qualities and problems. Although the majority of Shounen Jump series are slow starters, they usually have something to say by around episode 10. Naruto was like that, but Bleach was still flitting around at episode 20. Although I hear it gets a lot better, I couldn't shake the feeling that I was wasting my time with the show.
 
Ramen89 said:
It actually gets worse from around episodes 30-36 because it got really slow moving but now its improved thankfully.
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Yeah, I must admit that Bleach has it's pitfalls, one reason why I prefer the manga. The series changes drastically as it changes from monster-of-the-week-that-has-some-backstory-relating-to-a-major-character to assult on the Soul Soceity; this means longer, sword-based fights instead of the Ichigo vs. Hollow. The anime seemed to lose it's stride for a few episodes as the pace slowed down, but thankfully now it is better than it has ever been, covering the manga faithfully.
 
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To pass a really definitive judgement on both series I think you'd have to be up to date with them, right to the latest episode. Of course if you lose interest, you dont have to continue watching either show, but due to the length, anything thats at least 50/50+ episodes can change a great deal, and have its ups and downs (eg. Full Metal Alchemist being a prime example).

Chomolungma (what is your avatar btw, it looks interesting) by the time you watch the Chuunin Exam Saga of Naruto which follows the Zabuza story arc, your opinion on the show may have completely changed, theres just so much stuff going on, and so many new characters intorduced that I think nails Naruto down as a classic.

I can't say much on Bleach sinc I've only watched 4 episodes.
 
Paul said:
I saw nothing in the first 20 episodes of Bleach to suggest that the character motivations are particularly deep. Honestly, I thought they were boring; where did Ichigo's complex connection to Rukia come from anyway? His desperation for her simply sprung up rather than was developed over time as belivable relationship.
Does Ichigo even have a reason for becoming a Soul Slayer?
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There's a grudging respect between Ichigo and Rukia. Ichigo's an honourable guy, he's not suddenly regarding Rukia with puppy dog eyes he's simply returning a favour. He became a Shingami to save his family and Rukia gave him the power to do so, he owes her his own life and those of his family, as a result it's his fault she's locked up and he'll do anything he can to return the favour and save her.

And correct me if I'm wrong but Ichigo never explicitly states that he wants to become a soul slayer. He's a stand-in and that's all he's ever been. He does this because Rukia doesn't have the power to hold up her end of the bargain, his motivations are a result of his circumstances. Bleach is the kind of show that doesn't let itself get hung up on deeper meanings look hard enough and it's already there, laid out in front of you for all to see, it's how the pieces of the puzzle are put together that keeps the viewer guessing.

EDIT: This thread's in very real danger in becoming Naruto fans versus Bleach fans, not which show you prefer. I'm prepared to give Naruto a go, it can't have garnered such a frightening rep for no reason, but then again I can't sit idly by and watch my beloved Bleach get torn into for exacty the same reason albeit by fans from the other end of the spectrum. The Eva, Rahxephon thread worked because many a fan had seen both series....Bleach and Naruto on the otherhand is down to preference and as such I think the comparison whilst apt is a little unfair.
 
Ok now I've seen pretty much all the anime for both Bleach and Naruto and read the manga (I've had a lot of time on my hands recently lol). I've been watching Naruto for a long time so it's quite hard to remember a lot of it but I personally feel it is a tad better.

They are both extremely similar and derivative of many previous anime so it is quite hard to choose between them but Naruto pips it. As Paul says Ichigo's impetus for becoming a shinigami seems contrived and easy. He is a likeable character but does not have as many levels as Naruto has - virtually one dimensional in comparison really I feel. Naruto needs to prove himself to others and himself. He needs to feel he has a place. He wants to be the best. Ichigo falls into his role as shinigami and then essentially gets guilted into continuing and little is made of it after that. If more was made of his relationship with Rukia (there is some romantic/sexual tension bubbling but not apparent enough) I would understand his actions better but as it is they seem rather simplistic.

I feel many of the characters from Bleach pale in comparison to their Naruto counterparts for that matter: the arch rival - Sasuke, Ichida; the innocent heroine - Sakura, Inoue; the 'sensei' - Kakashi/Jiraiya, Yoruichi. Each Naruto character seems to have more substance. Perhaps it is because Naruto has been running for more than twice as long as Bleach that this difference is so evident but even in its early stages there were intimations that the characters had depth.

I also feel that Naruto has more of a sense of purpose. It seems to be heading somewhere. Each arc is part of a greater whole whereas in Bleach each arc (so far that is) seems to be isolated - almost like DBZ.

Also for all the seriousness in Naruto as well I feel it has ample comedy. For some reason I look upon Bleach as being fairly light-hearted in nature - I think this is because it is not all that dark - and because of this I feel it almost lacks in comic moments which detracts from it even more.

When I started writing this I thought it was quite a close contest but having thought about it Naruto actually is head and shoulders above Bleach. The only thing that I could really say against Naruto is that the fights perhaps take too long. I quite like the fact that Bleach gets it over and done with.

Naruto by KO.
 
The Judge said:
They are both extremely similar and derivative of many previous anime so it is quite hard to choose between them but Naruto pips it. As Paul says Ichigo's impetus for becoming a shinigami seems contrived and easy. He is a likeable character but does not have as many levels as Naruto has - virtually one dimensional in comparison really I feel. Naruto needs to prove himself to others and himself. He needs to feel he has a place. He wants to be the best. Ichigo falls into his role as shinigami and then essentially gets guilted into continuing and little is made of it after that. If more was made of his relationship with Rukia (there is some romantic/sexual tension bubbling but not apparent enough) I would understand his actions better but as it is they seem rather simplistic.

I feel many of the characters from Bleach pale in comparison to their Naruto counterparts for that matter: the arch rival - Sasuke, Ichida; the innocent heroine - Sakura, Inoue; the 'sensei' - Kakashi/Jiraiya, Yoruichi. Each Naruto character seems to have more substance. Perhaps it is because Naruto has been running for more than twice as long as Bleach that this difference is so evident but even in its early stages there were intimations that the characters had depth.
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I think you've hit the nail on the head there. The characterisation seen in Bleach is eventually what diluted my wanning interest in the show. Even by episode 20, Naruto had already weaved such memorable characters as Zabuza and Haku- a heart wrenching, unpredictable and gripping story arc that wonderfully outlines the steely determination needed if you think you have what it takes to be a ninja in Naruto's world.

Things just seemed to happen in Bleach, there was little consequence or emotional tension, just no real driving force behind the story.
 
I just think Bleach is a lot more grown up. The emotions each yarn spins are infinitely more well structured than the immediate, baroque melodramatics in Naruto. Reading Naruto I was never in any doubt where the story was going, I pegged the characters straightaway and for me they never transcended their stereotypical trappings.

The DBZ influence is also very pronounced and whilst some can live with that it lends itself too easily to unfavourable comparisons that try as they might to quell Naruto fans know as well as I do they're rampant throughout the series. I'd also like to point out before I'm subject to an angry tirade that the author of Naruto admits his work is heavily influenced by Akira Toriyama's.

Bleach's appeal whilst therefore not as immediate will perhaps hold up in 5-10 years time, whereas the Naruto backlash has already begun.
 
Paranoia Agent said:
I just think Bleach is a lot more grown up. The emotions each yarn spins are infinitely more well structured than the immediate, baroque melodramatics in Naruto. Reading Naruto I was never in any doubt where the story was going, I pegged the characters straightaway and for me they never transcended their stereotypical trappings.
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Stuart, I think your critisism of Naruto would hold a lot more water if you didn't admit earlier in the thread to have at best minimal knowledge of the story. It's harsh to accuse the characters of never transcending their stereotypical trappings when you are basing your opinion on the first couple of graphic novels. Come back after you've seen the first 20 episodes of the TV series (to the end of Zabuza - Haku arc); I think you'll like it, a lot. (I'd rather graphic novel discussion stays out of this debate, after all, it's a completely different medium of story telling).

The DBZ influence is also very pronounced and whilst some can live with that it lends itself too easily to unfavourable comparisons that try as they might to quell Naruto fans know as well as I do they're rampant throughout the series. I'd also like to point out before I'm subject to an angry tirade that the author of Naruto admits his work is heavily influenced by Akira Toriyama's.
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Please explain how Naruto is similiar to DBZ where Bleach isn't? I don't really get that comparision. Many Shounen Jump series will contain a few structural similiarities with the others, it's just the nature of the production. Doesn't Bleach have power-ups, flashbacks, training, long winded fights, a large cast of fighters with supernatural powers? Sounds like DBZ to me ;)

whereas the Naruto backlash has already begun.
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From where I'm sitting, Naruto has already reached a new level of popularity having aired on prime time Cartoon Network last week and securing massive audience ratings. The backlash is due to its popularity, it's a target for posers. I've loved the show since I started watching it back in 2003! :)
 
I agree with Paul that Bleach isn't so good.
I agree with Stuart that Naruto isn't so good.

There, a conclusive compromise on the debate :p







Disclaimer: Don't take this post too seriously, I didnt :p
 
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