Religion: The Enemy of Reason?

[CitizenGeek]

(The title is inspired by a documentary made by Richard Dawkins for Channel 4 in 2007; the title is clearly geared for sensationalism, which why I think it works!).

I've been thinking a lot about religion, atheism and rationalism lately, mainly because I've been watching a lot of interviews with anti-religious advocate and celebrated scientist Richard Dawkins. He claims that religious people are enemies of reason and that, in general, religion has had a corrupting influence on society. I'd like to ask the members of AUKN what you all think about this?

A belief in God is, if you think about it, very far fetched and entirely illogical. There's nothing even remotely resembling proof to support that there is a God, yet the burden of proof almost always lies on the skeptic to prove that there is no such thing as a God. I think this is unfair.

The idea of Russell's teapot is thus:

If I were to suggest that between the Earth and Mars there is a china teapot revolving about the sun in an elliptical orbit, nobody would be able to disprove my assertion provided I were careful to add that the teapot is too small to be revealed even by our most powerful telescopes. But if I were to go on to say that, since my assertion cannot be disproved, it is an intolerable presumption on the part of human reason to doubt it, I should rightly be thought to be talking nonsense. If, however, the existence of such a teapot were affirmed in ancient books, taught as the sacred truth every Sunday, and instilled into the minds of children at school, hesitation to believe in its existence would become a mark of eccentricity and entitle the doubter to the attentions of the psychiatrist in an enlightened age or of the Inquisitor in an earlier time.

So, opinions on religion in general, please! :]

 

[MaxonTreik]

Re: Religion: The Root of All Evil?

A belief in God is, if you think about it, very far fetched and entirely illogical. There's nothing even remotely resembling proof to support that there is a God, yet the burden of proof almost always lies on the skeptic to prove that there is no such thing as a God. I think this is unfair.

If a skeptic wants to use logic by saying it's not logically possible, then it stands to reason that they should prove why it's not logically possible, since saying it's not logically possible requires proof. Saying it's not logically possible but being unable to prove so is not logical.

Damn. I swore to myself I wouldn't post in religion threads, yet here I am.

In other (old) news, Richard Dawkins is a twat.

 

[shira]

I do belive it is the cause of all war. Id just like to say, if I do say something that may offend someone in this topic, I really dont mean to offend anyone. I think a topic like this, is naturally gonna cause some offense to people...

 

[CitizenGeek]

Re: Religion: The Root of All Evil?

If a skeptic wants to use logic by saying it's not logically possible, then it stands to reason that they should prove why it's not logically possible, since saying it's not logically possible requires proof. Saying it's not logically possible but being unable to prove so is not logical.

The 'logic' that it's illogical to think that a God exists is that there is not proof whatsoever to back up the claim that there is a God. People with the kind of attitude you have are frustrating. It's like the idea of the Invisible Pink Unicorn. Can you prove there is no such thing as an Invisible Pink Unicorn? No, you can't. Does that make it logical to believe that such a thing exists? Of course not. It's the same thing with a God.

In other (old) news, Richard Dawkins is a twat.

Irrespective or whether you agree with him or not, he is most certainly not a twat. He's a very, very intelligent, articulate person.

I do belive it is the cause of all war. Id just like to say, if I do say something that may offend someone in this topic, I really dont mean to offend anyone. I think a topic like this, is naturally gonna cause some offense to people...

No, religion is very definitely not the cause of all wars or probably even the majority. It is, however, the cause of too many wars and conflicts.

 

[MaxonTreik]

Re: Religion: The Root of All Evil?

The 'logic' that it's illogical to think that a God exists is that there is not proof whatsoever to back up the claim that there is a God. People with the kind of attitude you have are frustrating. It's like the idea of the Invisible Pink Unicorn. Can you prove there is no such thing as an Invisible Pink Unicorn? No, you can't. Does that make it logical to believe that such a thing exists? Of course not. It's the same thing with a God.

Did you see me deny that? No you didn't, and you didn't counter my argument. All you did was repeat yourself. Also, lighten up a bit mate. I was trying to have a laugh since these types of threads go into a downward spiral.

Irrespective or whether you agree with him or not, he is most certainly not a twat. He's a very, very intelligent, articulate person.

Would an intelligent and well articulated person go around trying to get people riled up AND get shunned by his peers? No.

I'm going to stay out of this thread because it's just going to go in the same direction as all religion based threads.

 

[Lupus]

Religion has never really had a big impact on my life, with parents who don't really care about such a thing I've not had much experience with it in my family. But from my view on what I have seen outside my family... it's just something to put a restraint on people and that they need something to believe in when they die. I don't have a problem with religion, but yeah, you get some over-zealous people who force it upon you, and in other cases can cause big wars as they have such a big passion in their faith that clashes with the ideals of others.

In short: Nothing good comes from Religion.

I hate posting in serious debate topics, it's just not me. But I'll do it, just this once, since I haven't discussed such a thing, like.... Ever.

 

[Chaz]

Evil is really a path of which people make and travel along, of which are effected by the consequences of their actions.

Religion is just an element that people use to make conflict. People are going to disagree with each other, and that creates tension. The difference in religion and some other reasons for conflict is that the worshipers are more passionate about it than territory and such. (Although, that wont stop the greedy from using religion as an excuse to gain riches and land.)

Religion is also something that people choose and may need to believe in, enabling them to feel secure about their lives. A set of laws and traditions give them guides to live how they desire.
However, not believing there is a god and such is also a belief, and it's all due to marals etc.

This explanation can last a long time, and I hate a long tether. Evil is what you make of it personally. You want to stab someone, then you best consider the consequence of others' hate and your own conscience with that action.
In short, Evil is up to the person and their actions, with consideration to other people's reactions and ideals. Religion itself isn't necessarily evil, meerly the shades that people desire to look through.

Note: Richard Dawkins means nothing to me, so I wont say he's great or not. In retrospective, calling him a twat and intelligent is also like the religion thing, personal perspective.
This is just describing that different religions have different "levels" of acceptance, i.e. like, neutral and dislike (and the mid levels beyond them).

 

[Ryo Chan]

There is only 1 true relegion

and that is Haruhism (while lupus is being serious, i guess i'll have to fill in the void for the sake of the universe) :wink:

 

[Zen 2nd]

Religion is just an element that people use to make conflict. People are going to disagree with each other, and that creates tension. The difference in religion and some other reasons for conflict is that the worshipers are more passionate about it than territory and such. (Although, that wont stop the greedy from using religion as an excuse to gain riches and land.)

I agree with that. Religion is often used as an excuse to start wars and fights.

I'd rather believe in God though, as when I'm on my death bed I'd rather die with hope rather than despair. If someone says that I'm wasting my life believing in something that is illogical, what difference does it make? If I'm wrong, I'll die and won't exist anymore and won't be able to have regrets of the life I just lived.

 

[Chaz]

Religion is just an element that people use to make conflict. People are going to disagree with each other, and that creates tension. The difference in religion and some other reasons for conflict is that the worshipers are more passionate about it than territory and such. (Although, that wont stop the greedy from using religion as an excuse to gain riches and land.)

I agree with that. Religion is often used as an excuse to start wars and fights.

I'd rather believe in God though, as when I'm on my death bed I'd rather die with hope rather than despair. If someone says that I'm wasting my life believing in something that is illogical, what difference does it make? If I'm wrong, I'll die and won't exist anymore and won't be able to have regrets of the life I just lived.

Mmm, and who are we, the non-believers, think we are saying otherwise. Most people will accept that you have your thing and we have ours. I just think that life is to live now, and when death comes, we should accept the outcome, even if we cant prepare for it. Just like you cant avoid things in life.
However, I do believe living organism are "natural robots" and in such, when we shut off, our energy disappears and our spirit will disperse. The body itself will become particles, and thoughts are just electrical signals running through the body. Atoms are very small "building blocks", but I do think there is something that makes the spirit. I'm not one to look for it though, but what it is is beyond just physical manifestation. How else do we have the ability to learn, control our movements and evolve? The mind itself would be a database otherwise, and we would walk through pain like nothing if the nerves had nothing to effect.

 

[CitizenGeek]

Re: Religion: The Root of All Evil?

Did you see me deny that? No you didn't, and you didn't counter my argument. All you did was repeat yourself.

Deny what?

Yes, I did counter your "argument". You clearly missed the point the first time, so I repeated it in the hopes you'd get the idea a second time, but alas, this overtly-simple concept remains lost on you.

Would an intelligent and well articulated person go around trying to get people riled up AND get shunned by his peers? No.

Shunned? What are you talking about? Dawkins latest book, 'The God Delusion', sold 1.5 million copies worldwide. He's beloved by fellow atheists and highly respected in scientific circles because of his "selfish gene" theories. In a poll not so long ago, he was voted as Britain's' greatest current intellectual. You're making deliberately misleading statements, and no one appreciates that ;]

it's just something to put a restraint on people and that they need something to believe in when they die.

Very true. Mostly, religion is used as a tool to control people. It certainly was in the past, anyway. Though, it's still true: Evangelical (nearly wrote Evangelion there :]) churches in the US are essentially just business now.

As for the dying thing, that's very true. A lot of people are terrified of death, so they console themselves by convincing themselves there's something after death.

In short: Nothing good comes from Religion.

I'm not so sure that's entirely true. Religion can comfort and console people sometimes. But, just because something is consoling, that doesn't make it true. Also, certain Christian sects that properly understand the meaning of the Bible (which is compassion, chariety etc.) have done good in the world, the Quakers are a good example of this. It's unforetunate the real Christians are in the overwhelming minority. Most Christians are too busy condemning gays and women, and making up lots and lots of rules and forcing everyone to live by them to do actual Christian things.

However, not believing there is a god and such is also a belief, and it's all due to marals etc.

How so? Not believing in something for which there is no proof at all is hardly faith in the same way religious faith is, is it?

 

[Zen 2nd]

Re: Religion: The Root of All Evil?

However, not believing there is a god and such is also a belief, and it's all due to marals etc.

How so? Not believing in something for which there is no proof at all is hardly faith in the same way religious faith is, is it?

He never mentioned faith in that sentence ¬_¬

 

[Ammish]

Religion isn't really the root of all evil. But the people who follow it are... Like a Gun isn't evil, but the people who use it for wrong are evil.

What cease to amaze me is the fact that Religion are meant to be about 'peace'. Not according to me...

I was born in a Muslim Family, but my Mum originated from a Christian family So I've been forced to read the quran and all... So I read the transalated version and I lost how many times it contradict itself... 'Islam is about love'...

Next thing... 'We should smite down the wrong-doers on the wrong path (Christianity) and the people who worship God through Anger (Jews)'

This could be said for all religion... They preach peace, yet it isn't. But call me racist if you want, but I dispies the thought of religion and most of all, I hate Islam with a passion. Something that really made my life unhappy...

If one religion I ever go to... It would be Bhuddism. That is really truly about peace. But meh...

As for the life beyond, I'm always in favour of the idea, Reincarnation.

 

[CitizenGeek]

Religion isn't really the root of all evil. But the people who follow it are... Like a Gun isn't evil, but the people who use it for wrong are evil.

Good point.

So I read the transalated version and I lost how many times it contradict itself... 'Islam is about love'...

The Bible also contradicts itself in fairly enormous, glaring, fundamental ways, too!

I hate Islam with a passion.

We rarely agree, but I'm totally in line with that statement. I dislike Judaism and Christianity an awful lot, but I absolutely abhor Islam.

He never mentioned faith in that sentence ¬_¬

Um, how does that alter my point at all?

 

[Espy]

Well, I for one hate religious debates. They always end up the same way - it seems to me that it's the anti-religious people are stubborn and intolerant, while the others are shot down with questions. But maybe that's just my personal experience with friends.

But I will say a few things. I am a Christian. I don't associate myself with any denomination (though I attend a Protestant church), I wouldn't even call myself "religious", but I am 100% Christian. It makes me sick when people say that nothing good comes from religion - it seems that so many people just take what Dawkins says, or assume that every church is likes the ones in the extreme documentaries. Since taking Christianity seriously last year, I have met some fantastic people, all with their heads firmly screwed on. Among them are some of the kindest people I've met. And they're not lifeless Bible-bashers - we have all kinds of people, with differing hobbies and fashions - even an emo or two (but let's not go into that)! And the changes it has made in my life are amazing.

So many people actually have no personal experience of this, but still talk about it like they know everything. If you really want to declare Christianity as evil, well, I suppose there are some historic battles to point to (but would they not have happened if there was no Christianity? Wouldn't humanity have found another reason to fight?), but stop reading random pick-a-page Bible excerpt until you read something out of context that sounds nasty enough, turn off GOD TV - I hate it more than you do - and go out there and talk to some everyday Christians, try and grasp what they're about. You'll probably find the first thing on their agenda isn't killing homosexuals. A friend of mine was saved from suicide because of Christianity - would you call this evil?

I'm not going to admit there is some corruption in Christianity (GOD TV is one of my pet hates), but that isn't Christianity. You'd be surprised at the amount written in the Bible about avoiding corruption and legalism.

As for whether God exists or not, well... this may be controversial, but say a person claimed they would become a Christian if it was proved true to them - they wouldn't be getting into Christianity for the right reasons. Christianity is a very personal, not scientific, thing - the Christians know this, but the anti-Christians don't care. And this is why most debates just end in frustration, with the Atheists arguing against God until they're blue in the face, and the Christians claiming that they just don't get it.

Oh, one last thing

A set of laws and traditions give them guides to live how they desire.

Christianity is actually the exact opposite of that =)

 

[Chaz]

He never mentioned faith in that sentence ¬_¬

Um, how does that alter my point at all?

To deny there is an accentiant being is BELIEVEING there is nothing higher in terms of existence. Like humans are the top of the food chain.
We can say aliens are also higher beings, maybe more capable than us (it depends on their race), but that's going off topic/leading astray.

 

[Kurogane]

Until we KNOW there is a being/race of beings higher than us (empirical evidence), then for now we are the top, biggest turd in the toilet so to speak.

I'm refuse to believe there is a force or entity above us, and will do until proven otherwise.

 

[Lin]

Vehement atheism is just as damaging, frustrating and hurtful as equally strong belief in religion. A belief in something should be just that, unhindered by the desire to convert other people to your 'side' and unaffected by other people's beliefs, no matter how strong.

It'll never work like that, because human nature is almost exactly the opposite.

Just can't stand angry atheists crapping on the beliefs of a lot of innocent, friendly religious people in the same way I can't stand zealous religious fanatics cramming scriptures down the throats of people who just don't want to believe.

My philosophy? I'll live my life as a good person and find out when I die, that way at least I can live with myself and my morals while I'm alive.

Also the poll is very one-sided, since there's more than just believing in God and then atheism. What about agnostics? Those who believe that we cannot know if a god or gods exist or not because the concept is unknowable. There's a wide spectrum between 'belief' and 'non-belief', despite the cliche, it really isn't all black and white.

 

[melonpan]

Define "God".

It is utter stupidity to limit onself to one definition of the word, and especially go to war and/or create hatred over the issue, but that's how it is.

Who's to know what purpose the Universe has, and I believe that people limit themself to one such meaning because they are scared of that fact, and because life can be daunting. For the 'ignorant masses' religion can be their sanctuary from the world, and that's absolutely fine. Religious organisations have done a good job at holding communities together and helping out charities/making their own charities.

I believe that religion should play no part in politics or trying to change the views of people who hold together a country.

Also, down with Scientology. We are legion. (just had to add that for the lulz)

I'm not going to apologize if I offended anyone, either.

 

[CitizenGeek]

Just can't stand angry atheists crapping on the beliefs of a lot of innocent, friendly religious people in the same way I can't stand zealous religious fanatics cramming scriptures down the throats of people who just don't want to believe.

Atheists have every right to be angry with religious people. Christians have forced Western society to live by it's rules for 1000+ years and have put in place processes of social conditioning for all people. It's because of Christianity that it took so long for women's suffrage, it's because of Christianity that scientists were persecuted and science is being held back (thanks to lobbying from the lunatic Christian right meddling in issues of Evolution and stem cell research), it's because of Christianity that gay people were denied the right to even exist until not so long ago and are still denied the basic rights of marriage and beginning a family ... and I could go on.

Atheists are entitled to be a bit annoyed that Christianity has gotten away with all the appalling stuff it's done because it parades itself around as being 'sacred' and therefore above criticism. It's only now that (thankfully) secularism is truly winning out. But, even that's only happening in Western Europe and China/Japan. The White House is controlled by the Christians, the Middle East can't stop fighting because of religion (Jews vs. Muslims), India is still being crippled by an unfair, religion-sanctioned caste system, Australia has elected an anti-gay, religious PM etc.

Well, I for one hate religious debates. They always end up the same way - it seems to me that it's the anti-religious people are stubborn and intolerant, while the others are shot down with questions. But maybe that's just my personal experience with friends.

Are you seriously calling atheists intolerant from a Christian perspective? Are you forgetting that Christianity is the primary driving force for intolerance today? Christians are remarkably intolerant of the non-faithful (the UK's biggest Catholic, Cardinal Murphy, recently stated that Satan was awaiting atheists). Christians are intolerant of women who want a choice in the extremely sensitive matter of abortion. Most obviously, they are revoltingly offensive and mean-spirited about perfectly human gay people. Christianity was used to justify segregation (read: discrimination against black people) in the US for the longest time, too. So, you and any other Christian is in no place to accuse anyone else of being intolerant.

but stop reading random pick-a-page Bible excerpt until you read something out of context that sounds nasty enough

That is exactly what Christians do in relation to homosexuality and you know it is.

A set of laws and traditions give them guides to live how they desire.

Christianity is actually the exact opposite of that =)

Not in practice.