Law Journal Article Supports Fansubs

Is out of here

Great Teacher
Sourced from ANN here

http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/20 ... ts-fansubs


An essay in the June 2008 issue of the Boston University Law Review journal has come out in support of some cases of distribution of fansub versions of anime licensed for commercial release in America. "Lost in Translation: Anime, Moral Rights, and Market Failure," written by law school student Joshua Daniels, argues that heavy editing of Japanese anime series for American release, as was the case with 4Kids Entertainment's handling of One Piece, is a violation of the moral rights of its creators. The legal concept of moral rights holds, essentially, that the creator of a work of art or media has a right to present it to the public without alterations. Daniels also makes the case the anime fans specifically and the public in general have an interest in access to entertainment and art in its original, unedited form.

The essay notes that in some cases, heavily edited versions of anime series are the only ones that are available in the American market. However, these versions have frequently been failures from a commercial point of view. To address this apparent market failure, Daniels proposes a new rule that would be included in the American laws on copyright. Under the rule, if only an edited version of a foreign film or television program is available commercially in the United States, any individual or group would be allowed to create and distribute versions, such as fansubs, that are unedited. While unlikely to be implemented, the hypothetical rule could either be used by judges, or actually incorporated into the Copyright Act.

Update: Moral rights or "droit moral" are protected by the Berne Convention that established how copyrights are recognized between countries. However, the Berne Convention and the laws of many countries established that only the author can exercise those moral rights, and not a third party unless that party is assigned to do so by the author. In implementing the Berne Convention in 1988, the United States stipulated that its existing laws already protected moral rights without having to explicitly abide by the convention's clauses on moral rights.


How to open a can of worms.
 
Yeah I fully agree with that he's saying. Maybe one day I'll write my own article on what I think.

I think he should extend it to manga as well, though. Down with Viz!
 
Re: Law Journal Article Supports (very few) Fansubs

Kireek said:
blah blah has come out in support of some blah blah blah as was the case with 4Kids Entertainment's handling of One Piece, blah blah blah the United States stipulated that its existing laws already protected moral rights without having to explicitly abide by the convention's clauses on moral rights.

So really the title is hugely missleading, it only gives one example and really at the end of the day its a load of tosh as its already covered by US copyright law.
 
Re: Law Journal Article Supports (very few) Fansubs

Project-2501 said:
Kireek said:
blah blah has come out in support of some blah blah blah as was the case with 4Kids Entertainment's handling of One Piece, blah blah blah the United States stipulated that its existing laws already protected moral rights without having to explicitly abide by the convention's clauses on moral rights.

So really the title is hugely missleading, it only gives one example and really at the end of the day its a load of tosh as its already covered by US copyright law.

Hmmm yes your right there I just copyed it from ANN..............how should I change it
 
Why in gods name doesnt some random law court just come along and shut the likes of crunchyroll down anyway?

It makes me laugh I saw a news report the other day about thousands of japanese protesting against the goverment for shutting down some illegal streaming site because they all want it for free..............are people now days that dumb they dont realize if they dont pay for it the company will go under then there will be nothing left! Or do they just want to ravage it and move onto the next big thing.
 
Kireek said:
Why in gods name doesnt some random law court just come along and shut the likes of crunchyroll down anyway?

Can you please, please, PLEASE, Stop whining about the same things? Yes we know you hate Crunchyroll, if it was THAT bad, then it WOULD have been shut down. The point is they have been careful enough to just stay inside the law, so they dont get closed. Please, find something better to rage about.

Kireek said:
It makes me laugh I saw a news report the other day about thousands of japanese protesting against the goverment for shutting down some illegal streaming site because they all want it for free..............are people now days that dumb they dont realize if they dont pay for it the company will go under then there will be nothing left! Or do they just want to ravage it and move onto the next big thing.

No. People arent that dumb. People are smarter than obviously you can see. Your taking a pessimistic view that everyones dull, when I see it as the otherway around, that people are smart enough not to buy into a series blindly. They want to stream these shows, and want to download the fan subs first, to make sure they enjoy it. Sure there are some that abuse it, and WILL NOT buy it, no matter how cheap it is, but thats the minority. You gotta look at both sides of things man. Srsly.
 
melonpan said:
Kireek said:
Why in gods name doesnt some random law court just come along and shut the likes of crunchyroll down anyway?

Out of interest, what do you think of Youtube?

I think of youtube as 50% user generated (sxephil athenewins smosh etc) 35% of people showing there cats and 15% of illegal stuff which is taken down quick i.e there wolverine trailer on here in another thread was taken down off there a day later.

Now CR has 99% illegal stuff on there and half the time there asked to take it down it takes them ages. They also make a profit from all these illegal files instead of the money going to the creators.
 
Spyro201 said:
Kireek said:
Why in gods name doesnt some random law court just come along and shut the likes of crunchyroll down anyway?

Can you please, please, PLEASE, Stop whining about the same things? Yes we know you hate Crunchyroll, if it was THAT bad, then it WOULD have been shut down. The point is they have been careful enough to just stay inside the law, so they dont get closed. Please, find something better to rage about.

Kireek said:
It makes me laugh I saw a news report the other day about thousands of japanese protesting against the goverment for shutting down some illegal streaming site because they all want it for free..............are people now days that dumb they dont realize if they dont pay for it the company will go under then there will be nothing left! Or do they just want to ravage it and move onto the next big thing.

No. People arent that dumb. People are smarter than obviously you can see. Your taking a pessimistic view that everyones dull, when I see it as the otherway around, that people are smart enough not to buy into a series blindly. They want to stream these shows, and want to download the fan subs first, to make sure they enjoy it. Sure there are some that abuse it, and WILL NOT buy it, no matter how cheap it is, but thats the minority. You gotta look at both sides of things man. Srsly.

The problem is the vast mojority simply dont buy it after even if they like it. They go LOLOL look at me there asking for the insanr price of $1.99 for this episode of xamd when I can just download it here (cuz lets face it I can find $1.99 lying round my house but whats the point when they see it for free they wont even pay that for what the creators are asking for) A lot of these people seem to be proud of the fact they steal as well I have heard a conversation before going like yeah im gonna burn all this onto a disc.

You yourself pay for it so do I but I tell you during the 90s when the likes of downloading wasnt around a lot more people were buying and they were even buying some stuff they had even seen before.
.
Carefull enough to stay just inside the law http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/20 ... 4m-funding? what kind of presetence does that set ? shoul I go to someones house steal all there belongings then sell it? A year down the line I get 4 mill for it? Look man I have no beef with you.

Oh and melonpan forgot ask what dont u like about viz? dont have much stuff from them mainly have tokyopop
 
Kireek said:
Spyro201 said:
Kireek said:
Why in gods name doesnt some random law court just come along and shut the likes of crunchyroll down anyway?

Can you please, please, PLEASE, Stop whining about the same things? Yes we know you hate Crunchyroll, if it was THAT bad, then it WOULD have been shut down. The point is they have been careful enough to just stay inside the law, so they dont get closed. Please, find something better to rage about.

Kireek said:
It makes me laugh I saw a news report the other day about thousands of japanese protesting against the goverment for shutting down some illegal streaming site because they all want it for free..............are people now days that dumb they dont realize if they dont pay for it the company will go under then there will be nothing left! Or do they just want to ravage it and move onto the next big thing.

No. People arent that dumb. People are smarter than obviously you can see. Your taking a pessimistic view that everyones dull, when I see it as the otherway around, that people are smart enough not to buy into a series blindly. They want to stream these shows, and want to download the fan subs first, to make sure they enjoy it. Sure there are some that abuse it, and WILL NOT buy it, no matter how cheap it is, but thats the minority. You gotta look at both sides of things man. Srsly.

The problem is the vast mojority simply dont buy it after even if they like it. They go LOLOL look at me there asking for the insanr price of $1.99 for this episode of xamd when I can just download it here (cuz lets face it I can find $1.99 lying round my house but whats the point when they see it for free they wont even pay that for what the creators are asking for) A lot of these people seem to be proud of the fact they steal as well I have heard a conversation before going like yeah im gonna burn all this onto a disc.

You yourself pay for it so do I but I tell you during the 90s when the likes of downloading wasnt around a lot more people were buying and they were even buying some stuff they had even seen before.
.
Carefull enough to stay just inside the law http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/20 ... 4m-funding? what kind of presetence does that set ? shoul I go to someones house steal all there belongings then sell it? A year down the line I get 4 mill for it? Look man I have no beef with you.

Oh and melonpan forgot ask what dont u like about viz? dont have much stuff from them mainly have tokyopop

But here is where the crucial difference lies. In reply to the first comment about me buying it; I wont lie, I only buy what I can afford. Yeah, £1 an episode, or £2 and episode im happy too but, correct me if im wrong, FLCL is coming out at £8 an episode? Thats just horrific. I can tell you now, I wil not buy FLCL even if it turns out to be (imho) as wonderful as Death Note. Yeah, I buy the stuff if I like it, but I wont pretend im a saint. I loved Black Lagoon, and havent yet bought it. I wait for boxsets for saving; So feel fre to hold it against me. Im merely arguing another side. (However; If a boxset is released, I will pre order and buy it, I promise that. I just prefer box sets, or special editions). And I will admit, with other shows I will buy it if I have the money, but money is quite an important factor, with DVD's like Death Note, VERY reasonable, under £2 an ep, with things like FLCL, thats robbery.

In reply to the crunchyroll funding thing, you said about going into someones house? Its quite alot different though, wouldnt you say? For one, lets take a random series; Black Lagoon. You think one person alone worked on that? The money will go to more people. All CR is put it on thier site so people can have a taster. I personally belive the Anime industry would earn more if they put high quality free download of the first 3-4 episodes. Thats alot of episodes I know, but you'll know by then if you like it or not. I know after watching 3 of Death Note I was hooked, however after 2 I could have dropped it. See my point??

Im merely showing the other side of the story to you, as your being biased. (Yes, I know I am being biased, but its just to even it out).

And dont worry, I have no beef with you; I just find this persistent hatred of Crunchyroll gets annoying after a while.
 
Kireek said:
They go LOLOL look at me there asking for the insanr price of $1.99 for this episode of xamd when I can just download it here (cuz lets face it I can find $1.99 lying round my house but whats the point when they see it for free they wont even pay that for what the creators are asking for)

Do you also have the money for a ps3 lying around?
 
Maltos said:
Kireek said:
They go LOLOL look at me there asking for the insanr price of $1.99 for this episode of xamd when I can just download it here (cuz lets face it I can find $1.99 lying round my house but whats the point when they see it for free they wont even pay that for what the creators are asking for)

Do you also have the money for a ps3 lying around?

No but what im saying is there are people on there who do own a ps3 but still DL it illegally because they seem to find anime worthless and not the mere pittance that the industery is asking for.
 
Fansubs undoubtedly need some stringent regulation, but that would first require the distributors of Anime to open up a dialogue with subbing groups and the sites that host them and to try to reach an agreement (which they don't seem too keen on doing).

To suggest that they should be banned outright however would be very short-sighted.
Keep in mind that out of all the Anime produced only a fraction of these titles actually make it over to the west (and the number that reach the UK is even smaller). For a great many shows fansubs are the ONLY way in which people in the west can watch them.

Try to remember that fansubbing has been in existence far longer than the internet has, there was a time when shows were subtitled in this manner and then distributed worldwide on VHS. Just because people have been abusing this format of sharing unreleased and untranslated Anime to people in the English speaking world in recent years does not mean that the whole movement deserves to be abolished.
 
People abuse the streaming service simple as, but all you can hope for is that every now and then someone decides to buy. As far as i'm concerned streaming helps weed out the **** that comes into the market.
The thing to accept is once data enters the internet it's there for good no court can ever remove that copyright really means little now a days products get brought based soley on there merits if your product is **** it won't sell something the anime industry needs to understand.
 
True, with all the various means of previewing a show nowadays there's little reason for a person to blind buy anymore.

You'd think considering how much it costs a distributor to bring an Anime over to the west that they'd only license the very best titles, but no they release a good deal of crap as well. If seeing a show online first helps a person to avoid wasting a lot of money on a poor title, then I see nothing wrong with that.

Some might say that loses the distributor revenue, but the people who buy Anime are not charities for big corporations. They have a right to only spend their money on what they'll enjoy, and the licensee has a responsibility to exercise better quality control over the titles they release.
 
I do agree, but if it was all counted by popularity and so-called "quality", it would be hard to separate the good mainstream, the bad mainstream, the good niche and the bad niche. Since, only the mainstream "good" titles would get licensed and lesser things would probably never come, and then who would be the judge if something was "good". One person may say Lucky Star is the bestest thing ever, and another would think of it as the worse thing, ever, period.

The Japanese audience and the Western audience tend to be vastly different in most cases, as well. I dunno that many that have the same audience in the west as they do in the east, so that's another reason I take it, it comes to a gamble, all in all. Who knew Cowboy Bebop would be what it is today, without a gamble.

..Not sure if that made sense, but a idea has arisen from the depths of my mind. If a company wanted to license a anime, but didn't know what to choose [from, say.. five titles] how difficult would it be for them to do a legal streaming of [said] titles they don't "own" then the title with the most votes or whatever, may get licensed (If the world was that easy)

I imagine there are 101 problems in what I just said, I'm curious what they are so.. shoot it up, if anyone feels like it. ;p (P.S. Sorry for ranting, As you lot probably have seen, I get carried away adding things in, etc, fairly often. I hate the look of this post now, ;/)
 
Lol this thread blew up in a few hours its been up a few days with pratically no comments.


Maybe im living in the past my teenage years were from 1995-2000 I didnt grow up in a dowload age.. since the internet boom ive seen my favorate record shop and Arcade machine places close down and im like wtf dont like this damn the people who download. May be I need to get with the times............."wanders of muttering"
 
Spyro201 said:
when I see it as the otherway around, that people are smart enough not to buy into a series blindly. They want to stream these shows, and want to download the fan subs first, to make sure they enjoy it.

Speak for yourself. I for one, and I know I'm not alone in this, just go and buy DVDs. I watch trailers on other DVDs, read reviews, look at recommendations etc..

You don't go into Pizza Hut and order a pizza but say 'I'm not sure I'll like it, can I try it for free and if I like it I might pay for it'.
 
Back in the 90s I heard a song on the radio and I went to the shop and brought it. You had to sell many copys of a single to get to number 1 in the chart back then. These days people hear songs on the radio and just download en mass. But as spyro pointed out in another thread ticket prices and merchendise shot up in price to make money up for less record sales..........I mean the other week coldplay got to number 1 in the charts without selling a single copy!!!!!


Now what can the anime industery do to make up money from lost DVD sales?

Does anyone remember before the internet? sure there were pirated VHS tapes going round but you coudnt do that in mass like you can now with the internet dowload .
 
Kireek said:
Back in the 90s I heard a song on the radio and I went to the shop and brought it. You had to sell many copys of a single to get to number 1 in the chart back then. These days people hear songs on the radio and just download en mass. But as spyro pointed out in another thread ticket prices and merchendise shot up in price to make money up for less record sales..........I mean the other week coldplay got to number 1 in the charts without selling a single copy!!!!!


Now what can the anime industery do to make up money from lost DVD sales?

To quote a fillm:

"Merchendising, Merchendising where the real money from the movie is made!"

I had a little talk about this with Spyro a little while back and this is one of the things we talked about. While the music industry has live gigs you can see, anime doesn't (neither does games come to think of it and i still consider game piracy a bigger threat) But with merchandising at least the creators can get some of the money, although then you run the risk of buying knock off items i guess.

If the anime industry wants to get back more dvd sales then things are going to have to change, and while its unrealistc to expect the single volume dvd releases to drop to £7 brand new they have to make it seem you are getting your money's worth. As Spryo said, FLCL may be good but at the price (instores i must mention, Play.com have it for £9.99) it doesn't seem to be worth it compared to the Death Note releases which work out cheaper per episode.

A problem like this isn't going to be easily fixed, and banning fan subs altogether will be stupid, like using a nuke to kill an ant, and will likely cuase further problems down the line.

Oh by the way Project-2501 I also buy blind, found some gems that way :)
 
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